Fluid Power Forums Industry Connection Why are people always doggin on the IFPS|
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Boyle |
Dear GLK: You are entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully request that you read my comments very carefully, before verbally attacking me. With respect to the numbers of American that are killed and injured each day, nowhere did I mention the fact that that they were all victims of hydraulic accidents. Please get your fact right before you rant about my comments! The rest of your comments are not worthy of debate. By the way, when you were working on the Patriot Dredge and the 150' crane (whatever that is) were they both safely locked out? Wouldn't it be ironic if I was called to Oregon to investigate a hydraulic accident and you were the victim! As I read between the lines of your post - when you are not being derogatory - you, like so many any others, seem to have learned a great deal about hydraulics by trial-and-error. I am certain that you have had a few mishaps or "near-misses" along the way. Did they occur because you were ignorant, or would it have been because you're just plain stupid? It appears from the experiences you write about that you are far too smart in hydraulics to ever get hurt. As you imply, hurt in hydraulics only happens to "stupid" people! If I am ever in the Portland area conducting a hydraulic safety seminar, I would like to invite you to attend (my treat). When I have completed the presentation I want you to tell me, honestly, how many of the hazards I present you have experienced because of what you didn't know - not because you are stupid! Next time I'm called upon to conduct an accident related to hydraulics, wherein the victim either suffered injury or death, due to the lack of training, I invite you to come along. Perhaps you might like to talk to the victim (if he or she is alive) or perhaps their loved ones. It might inspire you to want to help others work safely with hydraulics. Like my Grandmother always used to say - "talk is cheap, money buys the whiskey." I sincerely hope and pray that you never suffer an accident of any kind simply because of what you don't know! Respectfully, Rory S. McLaren Helping those who are open minded, and realize their shortcomings, to learn how to work safely with hydraulics |
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Boyle |
Dear Mr. Trinkel: You read what I wrote correctly - no I was not referring to a direct-operated relief valve. With respect to cartridge valves let me qualify - the vast majority of manufacturer's place a screen at the valve's inlet (in the cartridge) and thus it is not possible to clean the orifice should it become plugged. "Cast-iron" bodied valves can be disassembled (if a person is properly trained to do so) and repaired (remove obstruction from orifice). I am under no circumstances implying that I know the manufacturing peculiarities of all manufacturer's valves. My comments are generalized. Respectfully, Rory S. McLaren |
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Reynolds |
Mr. Rory S. McLaren,
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY THE WRONG PERSON TO CHAMPION THE CAUSE OF SAFETY; you are misinformed, over state situations and backtrack better than any member of the U.S. Congress I know. Quote: “nowhere did I mention the fact that that they were all victims of hydraulic accidents” The comment was made on a hydraulic forum, the subject was hydraulics, and you definitely implied your numbers were hydraulic accidents. Bud called you on your miss-statement regarding relief valves orifices and now you backtrack with “I am under no circumstances implying that I know the manufacturing peculiarities of all manufacturer's valves. My comments are generalized”. Quote:” By the way, when you were working on the Patriot Dredge and the 150' crane (whatever that is) were they both safely locked out”? Again, making statements by your own admission you know nothing about. Many HYDRAULIC accidents occur from people working in this field that should not be due to lack of training, lack of knowledge regarding what they are working on, and just because they are stupid and should not be working on anything period. The sad part about your statement of having the FAA inspect hydraulic flying machines (I assume aerial ladders), is really scary because you actually believe what you say. Product safety and liability are taken very seriously by manufactures and the number failures due product safety are very low, just a fraction of what you imply. Safety is very important in the Fluid Power Industry and everyone working, providing products or services should be aware of that fact and act accordingly. The last thing we need is some nut case scaring the hell out of people running them up and down the pasture with none sense. You’re dam right I am entitled to my opinions, and until the government takes that away too, I will express them as I see fit. This forum is already on its last legs as to intelligent posts, you are just contributing to the dumbing down of America with these dumb posts. Because you think I have verbally attacked you, you now have the first hand experience of being a VICTIM, you now can feel the pain of the hydraulic victims you profess to represent. Oh yes, must add respectfully behind the last sentence, sorry. Loved Ones: Update, the bicyclist that rammed his head into a parked car at a red light, while he was riding on the wrong side of the road, wants to have a candle light vigil for the bicyclist. I am sure that will be on my things to do? Go down and meet the loved ones only to find out there are several generations of stupid bread into many of them. I sincerely hope and pray that you never suffer an accident of any kind simply because of what you don't know and because you are a nut case. I pray for your safety while you are visiting our world. |
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Boyle |
Dear GLK: While my comments and beliefs may not appeal to you,and others on the forum, you will notice that I never resort to mudslinging and character assassination - please try to keep the forum respectable! If I am the wrong person to be championing safety in the hydraulics industry, are you prepared to either help me or perhaps take my place? I have a number of scheduled hydraulic safety seminars to take care of and I could sure use the help! Please let me know. I forgot to ask: Regarding the 150 feet crane you worked on, how much formal training in crane hydraulics have you had that makes you qualified to work on crane hydraulic systems? Please list your credentials. I feel it is important for crane owners and operators to see the credentials of the people who work on their equipment so that operators and bystanders are safe, and they (the crane owners) are excused of liability. I also feel that the people who participate in these debates should be proud to offer fellow debaters their credentials. In fact, if you have the kind of hydraulic expertees you appear to have based on your comments, I have clients to whom I would like to refer you for help with their hydraulic systems. I look forward to seeing your reply. Also, if I am ever in the Portland area, what are the chances that we could meet? I think we could learn a lot from each other. Respectfully, Rory S. McLaren This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rory McLaren, |
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Reynolds |
Mr. McLaren, my final reply regarding this subject, you may have the last word. I am so done with you and this thread, you can stick a fork in me, I am well done.
>Dear GLK: While my comments and beliefs may not appeal to you,and others on the forum, you will notice that I never resort to mudslinging and character assassination - please try to keep the forum respectable!< Answer: Ah the victim again, stated nothing regarding your character, just your stupid statements. >I forgot to ask: Regarding the 150 feet crane you worked on, how much formal training in crane hydraulics have you had that makes you qualified to work on crane hydraulic systems?< Answer: Did not know I could get a PhD in formal crane training? What the hell is that? >Please list your credentials. I feel it is important for crane owners and operators to see the credentials of the people who work on their equipment so that operators and bystanders are safe, and they (the owners) are excused of liability.< Answer: And whom would be the judge of my credentials, YOU? In addition, in 45 years I have never been sued, nor had a liability claim in any work that I have done. I also carry hefty liability insurance to protect all my customers. Something you should consider if you are going to keep providing bad advice. >I also feel that the people who participate in these debates should be proud to offer fellow debaters their credentials.< Answer: I do not care what you FEEL, my work stands on its own merit, and my customers are my judge and jury, not you. >In fact, if you have the kind of hydraulic expertees you appear to have based on your comments, I have clients to whom I would like to refer you for help with their hydraulic systems.< Answer: Respectfully, no thank you for the offer. All our work comes to us from customer recommendations, and without trying to be arrogant about it, we pick and chose our work based on application and complexity of the work, and generally, (but not always) are booked out 3-6 months. >I look forward to seeing your reply. Also, if I am ever in the Portland area, what are the chances that we could meet? I think we could learn a lot from each other.< Answer: Again, thank you for the offer, I think I will pass. |
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Bourdon |
Rory McLaren asked GLK:
Would The International Fluid Power Societies Certificates be suitable Credentials? If not what can a person offer for Credentials to work on Fluid Power systems on any type equipment using Hydraulic or Pneumatic components much less a 150' Crane? I've been to Miller Fluid Power's 5 week long course in 1959 when I answered an ad for a Fluid Power Salesman and got hired, taught portions of the class at least 6 times during my 12 years at Miller, I have Certificates from Vickers 2 week training class, been to Denison, AeroQuip and Dana's schools to name a few. However, at least 90% of my training has been on the job, normally considered to be the "College of Hard Knocks." However, the situation may change in the near future when Peter Nachtway starts his training center in the Northwestern U.S. I believe he can put on some wothwhile classes that will prepare a mechanically inclined person to be well ahead of any courses offered at present. On top of that, Fluid Power is not even recognized as a separate field of endeavor. In the States it is LUMPED in with Mechanical Engineering and usually only gets a Semester or Quarter of training. That is about enough to learn most of the available components and a little bit about how they are designed to work but not a lot more. Like GLK, I have worked on numerous pieces of equipment, designed circuits for machines that were/are hazards over the years with the College of Hard Knocks training since that was all that was available. Also, like GLK I never was cited for any infractions of any laws and was never heard of any injuries caused by a circuit design. After saying all that, I do believe there should be Fluid Power Engineers and Maintenance Persons who are Trained/Dedicated Designers and Maintainers of Flud Power systems. But, It sure is not a pooular position from the feedback I've received on these and other Fluid Power Forums. Bud Trinkel FP Consultant Retired "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson" |
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Bourdon |
Peter asked:
I would think there are several/ample/enough Knowledgeable persons in the Fluid Power Industry and Academia to write text' and train interested persons in the fluid power regimen. That is not the problem. The PROBLEM IS STILL NO ONE, AT LEAST ONLY A FEW, THINK IT IS EVEN NECESSARY!!!!!!!! Bud Trinkel FP Consultant Retired "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson" |
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Bourdon |
I believe even Motion Control applications use Reservoirs, Pumps, Relief Valves, Heat Exchangers and others various and sundry fluid power equipment.
On top of that, I seldom see any Hydraulic System that is totally Servo or Proportional Valve controlled. In fact, the Motion Control portion is usualy the MINOR PART OF THE MACHINE CIRCUIT as far as I've observed. I believe even the Saw Mill euipment you are involved with probably has 4-10 times as many Bang-Bang circuits as Motion Controlled ones. At least that has been my limited experience with a small portion that industry. Peter, I do not mean to imply that Motion Control is not and IMPORTANT PART OF THE FLUID POWER regimen, just that it is a small part, less tha 5% of Hydraulic Sales, and, in my travels, even less understood than Bang-bang circuits. As I've said before I would be more than pleased to have the knowledge you and Jack Johnson have but it's too late in the game for that. So. I use the next best thing and refer any customer I come across to one of you gentleman or others fluent in Motion Control. It's happened at least 7-8 times in my small territory in the last 50 years. Should have happened the first system I came across in 1973 but the old adage "Fools Rush in Wher Angels Fear to Tread" overtook my brain and I made a complete/expensive mess of that one. However,it was the "First and the Last" time I got in trouble with a Motion Control circuit. Bud Trinkel FP Consultant Retired "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson" |
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Reynolds |
To the Forum Moderator
Get this piece of crap “Muglub” off the forum, get off your butt and do your job and start banning people that use this forum for their own amusement and do not contribute anything intelligent. If this is America’s melting pot, it stinks like an open septic tank; frankly Muglub needs to be deported back to wherever he came from. Bud, Peter is correct as to the teacher problem. Most vocational-tech will pay a whopping $8-$10 per hour for instructors, want to control the reading material, (depends on who donated the materials to the school), have no control over content and wonder why most teachers are outdated, under paid and have no experience. Universities are pretty much the same, under grads teaching class with no work experience, professors that teach little if anything and have not worked in the real world (if at all) for years, and sorely outdated. I could put you in a class with ten of my customers and they would be teaching you, not the other way around. They have experience in electronics / hydraulics married together, servo valves, motion controllers and they understand the programming. They will have real world experience with positioning by GPS loads in applications, and repair most anything I can throw at them. Peter is 100% correct, who teaches the teachers, or better yet who will pay big dollars for the teachers experience, nobody will, that’s who. PS- Bud your statement that motion controllers play a minor part in hydraulic systems is flat wrong, in the past two years some of my designs included many motion controllers that were the very heart of how the systems worked. The last system can place a bucket under water 75-feet and within 3/4 of an inch with a GPS and motion controller, without a motion controller it would be impossible. On to another subject, servo valves, most on the forum (other than Peter) has no clue regarding servo valve types, design and application. There are differences between flapper type and jet pipe design, each has its own little quirks and failure modes, but both generally perform the same overall function. All servo valves can and do have a zero lap spools, and all are ground with laser control machines down to 1/2 micron accuracy. Biggest cost in a servo valve is the machining of the sleeve and spool to obtain the fit, performance and accuracy of the valve. Proportional valves are high production valves and do not generally have the good machine fit, and accuracy or performance of servo valve, that’s why they are so much cheaper than servo valves. A simple look at their difference in gain and hysteresis will prove that. What determines which product to use depends on two factors; one is response and two the accuracy required in the application. Another myth, can servo or proportional valves control pressure and flow, YES, however not at the same time; one must and will have priority over the other in any application. Most motion controllers are so fast at switching back and forth between pressure (force) and flow (speed) it appears that both can be done at the same time, which is not true, one must have priority over the other in any final say as to the load being controlled. Pressure (force) and flow (speed) can be controlled with servo valves and proportional valves; we do it all the time in many applications. Peter and I have a huge advantage over most on this forum, we design, build and apply cutting edge hydraulic and electronic systems, we know what can and cannot be done. Most here simply read books, interpret incorrectly what they read and have little to no actual design or application experience, and it shows by some of the miss-statements posted regarding motion controllers and servo applications. Mr. or Ms moderator, clean up the trash on this forum (Muglub the moron), or do not expect any intelligent people to post on this forum. |
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Bourdon |
Gary; I guess you have never looked at the Home Page of this Forum and noticed that I am the Moderator. I have removed trash and persons who have been diruptive, maybe you just never noticed. For about two months last year I was removing Porno Site listings and other such Ilk at least 10 times a day. That has been taken care of by making everyone sign up before they can post. Stopped that stuff quickly. Ma Glub, OTOH is a different story, I kinda like his input, puts a little fun in the every day Log Splitter type post'. I believe he is harmless and his input is taken for what it's worth by me and most on the forum. He needs help and can find some here I hope. "Bud, Peter is correct as to the teacher problem." Been saying almost the same thing for years Gary, However the feedback has been less than positive for getting teachers that know something. Maybe you missed the heated discussions that Peter and I have had on the subject. I think Peter is worried he will lose business if people learn how to design circiuts and maintain the equipment. OTOH, how can you get Trained Teachers without having TEACHERS to train them??????? Fluid Power is so far out in Left Field, when it comes to training, that it is a wonder it still exist' on this or any other planet. If the Electrical and Mechanical Field training was/had been handled the same as Fluid power traning is handled where do you think those disciplines would be? DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, people that is. However, from the feedback on this and other forums I do not expect to see any changes in the NEAR or DISTANT FUTURE. Seems most want to guard their expertise so they have the upper hand on applying Fluid Power equipment. At least that is the only conclusion I have come to since I started talking about the Need for Trained/Dedicated Fluid Piwer persons in 1988. Gary also wrote: "PS- Bud your statement that motion controllers play a minor part in hydraulic systems is flat wrong," I rate that statement from looking at the amount of traffic on this and all the other forums concerning questions on Motion Control that uses Servo or Proportional valves. Just take a look at Peter's forum; http://forum.deltamotion.com/v...de5027c0c3cfb3a82444 and count the post', (6) Subjects and (16) Replies since February or March. I know it's new but I've advertised it several times and Peter put it in tis forum when he started the forum. Gary noted also: "On to another subject, servo valves, most on the forum (other than Peter) has no clue regarding servo valve types, design and application." I resemble that remark and readily admit it. I have offered Peter and others names to my customers every time a Motion ontrol circuit has arisen. However, I am confident they did not get rich from the meager amount of times I have sent prospects to them. And: "Peter and I have a huge advantage over most on this forum, we design, build and apply cutting edge hydraulic and electronic systems, we know what can and cannot be done." Anyone with more than the knowledge of how to spell "Hydrolics" can make that statement about a lot more circuit designs than just Motion Control. Notice how many Log Splitter questions come up and how few offer any feedback to them. Ought not be that way but it is and has been for as long as I've been in the field. And, from the feedback on this and other forums, I for one am not holding my breath until a change takes place. Not bitter, just realistic. Oh Well Someday Maybe??????????? Bud Trinkel FP Consultant Retired "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson" |
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Reynolds |
Mr. Moderator, it is time I put the hammer down on you as well.
Quote: “I guess you have never looked at the Home Page of this Forum and noticed that I am the Moderator”. Answer: No, I did not notice, but it does explain the low opinion I have of this forum. Quote: “Ma Glub, OTOH is a different story, I kinda like his input, puts a little fun in the every day Log Splitter type post'. I believe he is harmless and his input is taken for what it's worth by me and most on the forum. He needs help and can find some here I hope”. Answer: Let me understand this correctly, you keep this jerk-wad on the forum for your own personal amusement because they took the cartoon channel away in your old folk’s home? Quote: “I think Peter is worried he will lose business if people learn how to design circiuts and maintain the equipment”. Answer: Another stupid remark from an uneducated person. I know Peter and have had him over to my office many times and he has answered every single question I ever presented to him, even regarding his latest motion controller design and logic. And I have had Peter on some of my designs and work that I have done and never held back any information he wanted to know. The trick is Bud you have to be intelligent enough to ask good questions, or Peter and I lose interest in conversing with an idiot. Quote: “OTOH, how can you get Trained Teachers without having TEACHERS to train them??????? Fluid Power is so far out in Left Field, when it comes to training, that it is a wonder it still exist' on this or any other planet”. Answer: I am guessing your education level somewhere around the 6th to 7th grade level? Many people with years of experience in any field become teachers or instructors simply because of their age, struggle to stay on the cutting edge, tire of the travel and etc. Not everyone can become a teacher, it takes some learning and communication skills that not everyone has or can learn. I have seen college educated teachers that could butter two slices of bread and slap them together then cannot explain in words what they just did. Quote: “ If the Electrical and Mechanical Field training was/had been handled the same as Fluid power traning is handled where do you think those disciplines would be? DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, people that is. However, from the feedback on this and other forums I do not expect to see any changes in the NEAR or DISTANT FUTURE. Seems most want to guard their expertise so they have the upper hand on applying Fluid Power equipment. At least that is the only conclusion I have come to since I started talking about the Need for Trained/Dedicated Fluid Piwer persons in 1988. I rate that statement from looking at the amount of traffic on this and all the other forums concerning questions on Motion Control that uses Servo or Proportional valves”. Answer: The entire quote above represents the ramblings of an uneducated, miss-informed individual that professes to use Microsoft Word in his writings, but cannot get the spell checker to function? Your E-books are an assembly of sample writings derived from many different authors over the years with a few words and sentences rearranged and then claimed to be your teachings. Quote: “And: "Peter and I have a huge advantage over most on this forum, we design, build and apply cutting edge hydraulic and electronic systems, we know what can and cannot be done. Anyone with more than the knowledge of how to spell "Hydrolics" can make that statement about a lot more circuit designs than just Motion Control”. Answer: Truth is, even the log splitter questions are a stretch for your abilities and you should not make comments regarding hydraulics in general, as you simply do not have the knowledge to engage at a higher level. Quote: “Notice how many Log Splitter questions come up and how few offer any feedback to them”. Answer: Feedback to what, most are opened ended questions with no real answer. Most post incorrect information or cannot convey their problem or frame the question correctly. Yet there are people (including you) that will spend days guessing at all kinds of possibilities that may or may not be close to the actual problem. It is much like a bunch of Hillbillies shooting mosquitoes with a shot gun? Until they (FPS) cleans up the trash on this forum, and provides Bud with his own “Fluid Power Hobby Forum” to keep you entertained, this forum will never raise to a level to attract trained fluid power people, which there are many out there waiting for a good forum to discuss fluid power for today’s market. |
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Pascal |
The quality of discussion on a forum like this stems from questions being asked and people joining the discussion, even with guesses if that's what it takes to advance the discussion.
Attitudes and egos are not productive and not professional. They serve only to chase away people that would otherwise be eager to join the discussion. People like maglub, Josh and others are the ones that form great discussions. And for the benifit of the people that have more experience than others, there is oportunity in honing communication/teaching skills. |
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Bourdon |
Gry wrote
Gary, Here are the other Flud Power forums that I am aware of. Try them out, maybe you will find them more suitable to your needs. http://fluidpowerjobs.ning.com...rialhydraulicexcange http://www.onlinetfp.com/index.cfm http://forum.deltamotion.com/v...de5027c0c3cfb3a82444 These have a Hydraulic area and are mainly Off-Road or hobby persons: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/...Steering/index1.html http://www.machinebuilders.net/forum/default.asp http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/...Steering/index2.html http://www.arboristsite.com/ Has some hydraulic questions. Bud Trinkel FP Consultant Retired "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson" |
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Reynolds |
Fluid Power Hobby Forum
I am not like Bud and will kick a dead horse to death for years; I know when it’s dead. The advice from a fluid power repair shop with their expertise of remove and replace troubleshooting, and the technical fluid power terms of “tsk... tsk... tsk... hehehe” has convinced me this forum is a waste of time and should remain at its current less than knowledgeable level. To many it will be welcome news that, like Peter, I will not view or post on this forum, for it simply is a forum of very basic knowledge at best, and cannot offer any application or engineering advice in my field. In time all will be forgotten and you all may continue to drag fluid power down to its lowest common denominator of ignorance. Is this where I am suppose to say “tsk... tsk... tsk... hehehe”? "Fame is a vapor, popularity an accident, riches take wings. Only one thing endures, and that is God put all the morons in this forum." |
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Pascal |
Listen to this thread; Maybe this is why the IFPS gets no respect? Instead of the huge ego-fest, you could all be putting your great minds to use on the board of directors.
Here's some egotistical comments none of you can one up. 1. I can drive better than any of you, and can make more horsepower out of a naturally aspirated internal combustion engine than any of you. 2. I can draw and paint better than any of you. Great, now where did that get us? Nowhere. Now watch this (I like to call this number, "On Topic Conversation"). Safety: If we used press safety as our guidelines to building fluid power machinary, every machine would be as safe as needed. I'm not sure what American press safety standards are, but Canadian and European standards are very high. We decide the level of safety required by the speed of the machine, number of pinch points, frequency of operator interaction, frequency of die changes etc. Depending on the level of safety required, we can then use light curtains, hand restraints, redundant controls, control reliable valve arrangement, monitored safety valves(self monitored valves in pneumatics), safety rated limits etc. We also have a strict pre-start safety review done by a qualified engineer (whom has to sign off on it). Even if you integrate most of these aspects into every machine (like monitored valves), every machine would be a lot safer. Servo vs Proportional. There are some damn good monitored prop valves out there, which can get very close to servo valves; without so much wasted energy. GLK, 1/2 a micron clearances? What about thermal expansion? |
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