Bud,

I simply do not understand what you want or expect to happen in the fluid power industry. Peter and I, have given you some good reasons why trained people are not at all the locations at user levels you want, you just refuse to listen.

Quote - Keeping secrets is not the smartest way to promote growth in my opinion but I could be wrong.

You are wrong Bud, if you did that to me, after I fired you I would then sue you for damages. There is a big difference between teaching basic hydraulics, which is common knowledge, and providing design and engineering information to just any body that wants to copy and use it.

I read either on this forum or another some person made the comment that every fluid power person should share all their knowledge for the common good of fluid power. This fool, had no knowledge or experience and wants me to give him my knowledge and experience free without any effort on his part.

Another dumb quote - I don't know of another discipline that secretive actions has helped, but, things do have a way of flip-flopping.

What company would hire you if you gave out your customer’s designs, process, manufacturing information to competitors or just any body that asked for information? I cannot think of any company or industry that does not consider information the same as gold, and closely guards all information. Secretive action DOES HELP, it forces people to come up with a better idea, rather than copy some one else’s work. More ideas, better ways of doing some things, instead of the same old stuff copied repeatedly.

I do work around the world and trust what I say, a big mouth or sharing information is not allowed. If you are, dumb enough to do it, your competitors will use it to take your market share and your money and never do business with you again.

I cannot believe you take issue with Peter because he will not share information, no body I know that wants to stay on top will either. Your wonderment with electrical we have heard before, and the doom and despair of replacing fluid power for years now, still has not happened and most likely will not happen. The next time you drive over a large bridge, think about the size and cost of an electrical actuator needed to drive a 200-foot long, 36-inch steel casing into the ground that this bridge sits on. Or how about this, remove all the hydraulic cylinders on an excavator and replace them with electric actuators, with a long drop cord snaking around town looking for a power grid to run them.

Now let us really promote fluid power with Bud’s thinking; first let us ask Paul J. Heney not to charge for fluid power certification, or Hydraulics & Pneumatics magazines, and no more charging for ad space. Then Bud will teach basic hydraulics free, all materials included and at his expense. In addition, you get a free electrical book if you complete the class. All fluid power workers are to take a lie detector test to reveal any hydraulic secretes to be posted on the internet free, to be used by all who can read.

Now there is an idea you cannot disagree with, it conforms to your thinking, and will promote fluid power beyond your dreams. You can die a happy man knowing you have given so much to fluid power.

When you get this done, call Peter or me, and we will consider telling you some of our secrets.

Disclaimer: As with any statement in today’s world, these comments are mine, and do not represent any one else. These comments are not a personal attack on anybody or any thing, and simply reflect editorial comment only. If some one is offended, then like a politician, I say I am sorry and we move on.

I see Peter making another post.

Quote - Keeping hydraulic circuits secret is hard because anybody can just look and see what was done.

Not true Peter; it is a little harder than you think to fully understand hydraulic circuits that involve some advanced circuitry. I have reversed engineered some advanced machines and you never get every detail out of just a circuit drawing. I have been studying a Komatsu PC9000 for months now and still do not have what I need to make some changes. However, Bud has a good idea; I will just call them and ask for information on how to change their design. I never thought of that idea.

WOW!!!!

Two against One. Change my "I could be wrong" to I am wrong and stand corrected.

thanks Gary and Peter for setting me straight. I really appreciateit.

Would you believe Gary actually wrote this:

"There is no shortage of fluid power applications out there, but there is only a hand full of people knowledgeable enough to do them. Too many basic hydraulic people, not enough advance hydraulic people with the knowledge required, therein lies the problem with fluid power."

Maybe he will someday decide there is a need for trained, even degreed Fluid Power Persons.

Bud,

Yes I wrote that comment, and I am sticking to it, ha, ha. Some how you have it in your brain that degree = intelligent.

A doctor in PA killed my uncle, cut the wrong leg off, staff infection set in = dead in three days. This doctor had all kinds of degrees, but could not tell left from right.

Now maybe in your small town, you simply do not see that many people with degrees walking around and you are impressed that they have them (degrees) and can tie their shoes. Here in Portland, OR the college cranks degreed kids out almost monthly like the local bakery bakes bread. If they can cross the street without being run over 10-days after graduation, we think they are smart and may have a chance. The others that do not make it across the street, well, we call them speeds bumps.

I love picking on you, it is like you came from the Ice Age, and we are trying to thaw you out without using matches.

Gary (GLK) wrote;

quote:

I love picking on you, it is like you came from the Ice Age, and we are trying to thaw you out without using matches.

I,ve. been picked on by Exspurts so one more gets te same response.
GLK

quote:

Some how you have it in your brain that degree = intelligent.

Not really, just that trained persons have a better chance at getting it right or at least being able to understand what they are doing wrong. What they actually know becomes evident very soon to anyone they are trying to impress.
All you have to do is take a look at some post,s on this and other forums.

Bud,

Quote - Not really, just that trained persons have a better chance at getting it right or at least being able to understand what they are doing wrong. What they actually know becomes evident very soon to anyone they are trying to impress.
All you have to do is take a look at some post,s on this and other forums.

Normally, I would just let this topic go and not reply, but this is an important topic for people to read and understand, because you post on so many forums preaching the same subject. You imply that training and a degree will produce a very good hydraulic person.

My contention is, although training and a degree will certainly help, it also requires years in applying this knowledge before good results are seen. Most people do not want to spend the time it takes to become proficient at designing and using hydraulics, you always preach the degree thing, but seldom state that without years of application to go along with this degree, the results are less than expected.

Now, let us use your logic and apply it to you. You put on training class and write books on the subject of hydraulics. Here are my questions.

1. Do you have a degree in and or any teaching credentials to qualify you to be a training instructor or teacher?
2. Have you taken any college courses in English or any training at all that qualifies you to write books for the public on the topic of hydraulics?
3. Given that you may have the technical knowledge in hydraulics, do you have the training and or degree required to convey that knowledge in a class setting or book.
4. Do you have a degree, specifically in fluid power from any college?

I think every one would agree that being a teacher requires knowledge and training. I am not trying to degrade you in any way; however, I am applying the same standard to you, which you want to apply to Fluid Power people.

I strongly disagree with you, that a degree and a few hours of training class and you are good to go in hydraulics, as you suggest. I also strongly disagree that a degree is the only path to becoming a fluid power person.

My position has always been, that training and a degree are helpful and should be included, the actual application of hydraulic knowledge over a 5-10 year period is more critical than a degree. Moreover, a degree is not the only path to be successful in hydraulics. That said, most people will not spend the 5-10 years applying their knowledge, and will remain at the basic knowledge level until they get bored and move on to something they expect will bring them faster results.

A silly idea that people can only function in the real world if they have a degree in something, and those that do not have a degree cannot function in the real world is flat wrong.

Two things need to be done.
1. You, by your own logic need to go back to college and satisfy the items listed above; otherwise, your own logic fails you.
2. Simple door-to-door sales of fluid power parts for ten years will not make a good fluid power person (maybe a good sales person). A mix of troubleshooting, circuit design, and machine design is required, which most do not get.

Every time the subject of promoting fluid power comes up, this degree thing pops up, seldom if ever the truth is told that there is no fast track in hydraulics.

GLK wrote:

quote:

My contention is, although training and a degree will certainly help, it also requires years in applying this knowledge before good results are seen.

That is aout as close as we have come to being in agreement. HALELEUJIA!!!!!!

Is'nt that true of any degree in any field a person chooses to work in.

Surely you agree formal training in any field does not qualify a person as expert or even close to that title. They must work in their field for an extended period before they qualify as anywhere near expert. However, the formally trained person knows the basics and can get up to speed a lot quicker than someone off the street who may be mechanically inclined but without basic Fluid Power knowledge.

GLK also wrote:

quote]Now, let us use your logic and apply it to you. You put on training class and write books on the subject of hydraulics. Here are my questions.

1. Do you have a degree in and or any teaching credentials to qualify you to be a training instructor or teacher?

No Gary I don't but it sure would have helped in the early days. My only degree in Fluid Power and Teaching is from the College of Hard Knocks and a lot of practice. I try to not think about some of the stupid things I said and did in those first training classes but am thankful for the oppoeryunity. Now I want to pass any good from those years on.

2. Have you taken any college courses in English or any training at all that qualifies you to write books for the public on the topic of hydraulics

No again, but, I have a mentor in my home who my kids called The Hitler of Corect English since she wuld not let them, OR ME, get by with wrong English, spoken or written. I think that counts for something.

3. Given that you may have the technical knowledge in hydraulics, do you have the training and or degree required to convey that knowledge in a class setting or book.

I believe I sent you my Basic book and you sent back a dozen or so corrections out of the 275 pages. Several others have critqued the basic book and none have advised to keep it a secret. ydraulics & Pneumatics magazine is running it on their web site a chapter at a time for anyone who wants to check it out. Look on heir home page www.hydraulicspneumatics.com and go to the "ebook link." They just started a new ebook on Flud Power Circuits Expained also.

4. Do you have a degree, specifically in fluid power from any college?[/quote]

Again NO Gary, but it sure would have helped in the early days as a salesman with Miller Fluid Power. I remember spending hours on simple circuits since the College of Hard Knocks is not the best or easiest way to learn a field like Fluid Power or Electrical Engineering. Fortunately Fluid Power is a lot more forgiving than Electrical so the status quo is the way it has been handled since its inception.

Still have not convinced me that a Fluid Power degree would not be a good thing and a help for moving Fluid Power forward.

Peter wrote way back:

"So now you tell me how there can be a hydraulics degree when even if you could do the math there are no valid numbers to stick in the formulas."

With trained persons in the Fluid Power field it would seem obvious that these "valid numbers" would be forth coming.

After all you are trained and realize the need for a lot more information.

Peter;

This is a wild guess to why the Fluid Power manufacturers do not give you the data you need to design your circuits accurately:

Could it be they don't have the Fluid Power expertise to know how to get that info?

Maybe their designers are only trained as Mechanical Engineers and do not know how to get the information you require???????? Could be they need some Fluid Power training in depth, Fluid Power Engineer??????

Would be interesting to hear from some of the manufacturers.

Peter wrote;

quote:

Mean while I like Oddball's question. No one has tried to answer it yet.

I for one would love to Peter but they did'nt teach that in the College of Hard Knocks in any of the classes I attended.

Maybe some of the Mechanical Engineers with 2 semesters of Fluid Power classes could step up to the plate.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bud T,

This comment from another forum discussing Accumulators should not be true of equipment that has been around a lot of years.

"Hydraulic accumulators are very common where I work, however I'm surprised at how many new maintenance people to our facility have never seen one. When anyone asks me what "that bottle thing does""

I believe this is all too common in the world of Fluid Power equpment and application and on a lot more common equipment than Accumulators.

Maybe a couple of semesters in College or a 1 or 2 week seminar by the Flud Power manufacturers is not getting the job done????????????????

Maybe things are different in Arkansas, never run into any mechanics that didn't know what an accumulator was, nor about its basic function and that you damn well better valve it off before you break any lines, remove a valve, etc. I did work around an electrician, came out of the Navy nuke program that did not know what an impact wrench was-to him it was a pneumatic nut driver-once when asked to go get a come-along he thought this was a practical joke.
The electricians for the most part accept the mechanical work-goes with the territory-every once in a while we get one that wants to fix a blown hydraulic hose with a keyboard-they usually don't last long in a steel mill environment. Maytag

Peter wrote:

What do you expect from maintenance men that only have a high school education? They are not trained in hydraulics. The ones that have had a physics course probably went to college.

My point exactly Peter. I was not faulting the UNTRAINED Maintenance Person or even UNTRAINED Engineers just making a point of how a field like Fluid Power hat is so prevalentin the mechanical world is so little taughtthat Electrical Forums have better discussion by hundreds mors posters tha all the Fluid Power Forus combined. OUGHT NOT TO BE SO!!!!!!!!!!

Did you notice the number of posts on plcs.net? Don't you find it distrubing that PLC programmers have more interest in accumulators than those on the hydraulic forums?

My point exactly on why we need TRAINED FLUID POWER PERSONS like the Electrical Field.

At a local company I teach the Electrical Apprentices a 64 hout Basic Fluid Power class using the ebook that is presently on the Hydraulics & Pneumatics web site. It is sad to say that the electrical persons pick p the principles and follow the schematics much faster than mechanics since they have a background in electrical schematics. I know the symbols are different but the process is the same.

Bud, I am not near as pessimistic as you are. Look at the plcs.net forum. These guys are plc programmers but they show more interest in accumulators than those on this forum.

Take a look at the number of subscribers to each of the above forums and you don't have to wonder why the greater number of posters to the accumulator question. Albeit, you will also notice it is the same bunch that post on most of the other questions.

You still have not convinced me that there is not a need fro TRAINED FLUID POWER PERSONS. In fact it seems you may be changing your mind according to this statement. (What do you expect from maintenance men that only have a high school education? They are not trained in hydraulics. The ones that have had a physics course probably went to college.)

Still trying in INDIANA

quote:

I just don't think there needs do be a separate hydraulic degree.

Sad to say Peter there is a lot more agreement for your thinking than for mine. I have reread the post's on this and other forums where this subject has been debated/discussed and see the writing on the wall (Forums).

I hope it is due to the lack of trained persons in the Fluid Power users end of the business and not from your position being the correct one. However, I have been wrong several times in my illustrious career and will, if not happily, concede to the will of persons on the other side of the debate.

Since my first attempt at writing an article for Hydraulics & Pneumatics magazine, in March of 1988 to the present, almost 20 years, the feedback has been less than promising that there ever will be a Fluid Power Engineers Title or a degree for that position.

I had high hopes that everyone would jump at the idea of trained persons in the field so it could progess at a much faster rate and not be replaced by other means of transmitting eneregy devised by trained persons in other engineering disciplines.

Oh well, I tried.