quote:

You still have not convinced me that there is not a need fro TRAINED FLUID POWER PERSONS.

I didn't say that. I just don't think there needs do be a separate hydraulic degree. I don't have a hydraulic degree or certification. All engineers take calculus and physics. The problem is that most forget what they learned in college.

quote:

I just don't think there needs do be a separate hydraulic degree.

Sad to say Peter there is a lot more agreement for your thinking than for mine. I have reread the post's on this and other forums where this subject has been debated/discussed and see the writing on the wall (Forums).

I hope it is due to the lack of trained persons in the Fluid Power users end of the business and not from your position being the correct one. However, I have been wrong several times in my illustrious career and will, if not happily, concede to the will of persons on the other side of the debate.

Since my first attempt at writing an article for Hydraulics & Pneumatics magazine, in March of 1988 to the present, almost 20 years, the feedback has been less than promising that there ever will be a Fluid Power Engineers Title or a degree for that position.

I had high hopes that everyone would jump at the idea of trained persons in the field so it could progess at a much faster rate and not be replaced by other means of transmitting eneregy devised by trained persons in other engineering disciplines.

Oh well, I tried.

Kind of a double post here from the Industry Connection subforum, but ...

We had a panel discussion at last week's NFPA Educator/Industry summit, and it was very interesing.

The discussion seemed to focus on the fact that almost no one thought that a full-fledged four-year degree program (say, supplanting an ME degree) was the answer. But realistic options would include a masters degree in fluid power, a minor in fluid power for MEs, and senior design focuses on fluid power for MEs and related degrees. Maybe different universities would adopt these different ideas, in other words, there doesn't have to be just one correct answer.

I think it was a success because there was so much interest in talking about the problems, and people seemed passionate about finding some sort of solution.

Later, at dinner, each table then talked about their thoughts and filled out a paper with their conclusions. I'll be interested to hear from the NFPA what they get from all those papers, and what is the next step.

Sounds like the NFPA persons are acknowledging a need for trained, dedicated Fluid Power persons.

I'm sure the Electrial Field did not start with a full 4 year Bachelors degree at first or even an Electrical Engineer title so there may be hope for Fluid Power persons with real training in the future.

Thanks for all your efforts Paul. Let me know if I can help from my present limited resources.

Paul,
In your efforts to promote higher education within the fluid power industry don't forget the maintenance people. Not to take anything away from the EE or ME but a large part of American industry is kept operational thru the efforts of the lowly mechanics and electricians. The maintenance dept. in our plant has no ME and the only EE works as an electrician because he can make more money. Two year associate?? Only my two cents, hopefully I did not offend anyone-that was not my intention. Maytag

Maytag, I agree. Maintenance is important. If the oil ( energy ) can't get from point A to point B with out spilling it then all is lost.
Electrical power or mechanical drive shafts and gears don't have this problem.

Hydraulics is just a way to get energy from point A to point B like a driver shaft or gears. Hydraulics isn't about oil. It is about moving energy. Get over it. You know it is true.

I think the educator summit came to a very good conclusion, but who is going to pay the salary of of a person who has a Masters or PhD in hydraulics? I think the US can support a handful of these types of people as consultants but I can't see someone coming right out of college with a masters degree being that useful.
I still think a an apprenticeship program for engineers is required to get a dose of reality.

The problem I see is that engineers don't remember what they learned in college. Designing servo hydraulic systems properly is not easy. Most don't remember their physics, calculus and definitely not their differential equations yet they are still called engineers. The hydraulic industry needs engineers that can answer Oddball's question. I have showed that questions to others where I work and they agree with me that it is one of the fundamental hydraulic problems.

quote:

I think it was a success because there was so much interest in talking about the problems, and people seemed passionate about finding some sort of solution.

Talk, talk talk. Do these people know physics, calculus and differential equations? Do they know understand hydraulics or are they just slamming pistons into the ends of cylinders and hoping the servo motor guys don't replace their systems?

Books like Jack Johnson's books are good for freshmen in college. What do you teach the last three years? Who would teach it? Has any body got a clue as to what to teach?

Getting the energy from point to point should be a given if you want to compete with the electric servo guys. Now the trick is to manage energy.

Peter Nachtwey

Peter wrote:

quote:

Hydraulics is just a way to get energy from point A to point B like a driver shaft or gears. Hydraulics isn't about oil. It is about moving energy. Get over it. You know it is true.

Are the persons who design Shaft's, Gears and the mechanisms that contain them and are driven by them, UNTRAIBED?????? I beleive these persons are called Mechancal Engineers and spend a lot of time on Shaft's and Gears and all other Mechanical devices and have a degree to prove they have the training.

Is a Mechanical Wngineer smart enough to design the electrical circuits that control their mechanisms's? Certainly, BUT he is not trained in that field so he looks to those who are.

However when it comes to Fluid Power Guess What, The Mechanical Engineer looks to the Fluid Power Manufacturer or Distributor Salesman to design their circuits. This still does not seem the correct way to handle a multi billio dollar industries equipment and so far I have not been convinced to the contrary by you or others.

Peter also wrote:
"Books like Jack Johnson's books are good for freshmen in college. What do you teach the last three years? Who would teach it? Has any body got a clue as to what to teach?"

Is that not a sad situation for an industry that racks up sales in the multi billions of dolars. However, I believe there are enough knowledgeable people in this world that a great curriculum could be devised that would fill the bill. Possibly we could borrow from others to get a start.

Peter also wrote:
"I still think a an apprenticeship program for engineers is required to get a dose of reality."

That would be a start. However, if that person leaves the apprentieship and works on everything but Fuid Power for a year the knowledge gained would go away just like the engineers you talked about, Use it or Lose ii is the old saying.

Peter, do you get the idea that you still have not convinced me????? If not then I will say it again. WE NEED DEGREED FLUID POWER PERSONS who are responsible for designing and maintaining Fluid Power equipment so Fluid Power can move forward like industries who have trained dedicated people to design and maintain it.

I wonder who designs and maintains Aircraft Hydraulics?

Guys,

Let’s all agree neither of you really know what you’re talking about, both are right and both are wrong. You guys are worse than two girls squabbling over what dress to wear. I wouldn’t let either one of you guys design anything for me; I would have to take too many aspirins to get it done.

One wants a degree on anything that requires thought, and can’t figure out who fixes and designs aircraft. the other wants to use physics, calculus and differential equations to find out why my trash can was thrown in the middle of the street last trash day.

In the mean time hydraulics is running along just fine and thank God neither of you two are in-charge of anything important.

I read the other posts as well, one wants to know what dots and dashes he sent in means, the other wants free design work for his farm tractor from the forum, and you two cannot agree on anything of importance.

Now what part of a differential equation or a degree will provide some answers to these two less than smart posts?

Give it a rest, enough is enough already on this subject, let’s try and figure out why people are getting dumber by the second in just about every subject you could come up with. Let us solve this problem, and then work up to hydraulics at a later date.

Somebody should charge both of you for the server space you use up just posting this gibberish.

Gary;

Go trim the Wicks on your Kerosene Lamps and sharpen your Axe and Crosscut Saw to cut firewood to put in your fireplace this winter.

Some like progess and leaving off the ways of the past that are not working as well as you think and are being replaced by equipment from persons with real training.

I am still not convinced that the College of Hard Knocks is the correct way of learning a discipline as complex as Fluid Power. So far no one has given anything I consider worthy that is contrary to that thinking.

However, don't give up trying but use some real world situations of how fast Fluid Power is advancing. My experience has been that not much has changed in my tenure in Fluid Power and from the feedback on this and other forums, future change looks bleak.

Bud, you grumpy old man, you are not important enough to me to convince you of anything, I simply don’t care? You been kicking this dead horse to death for years now, and I cannot even remember the color of the horse when it was alive?

I started a post about projects for people to post their work, and you even thought it was a good idea, guess what, one post by me and nothing from you or any other hot shots on this forum. I even took Peter out to the job site so people wouldn’t think I was making it up, and he was overwhelmed by the design when actual standing on the machine. And trust me, Peter is hard to impress.

It seems there are a lot of people that talk a good talk, but design and produce little if anything, get my drift grumpy? And don’t give me this baloney about jobs being secret and we can’t talk about them or show them. I do work in 40 different countries all over the World and many different governments and can count my secrets on one hand.

Time for people to stop talking about what they think they know, and start showing what they have done or could do and really what they know about hydraulics.

As for the wood, it’s in and I am ready for winter, but also know that when the Kerosene lamp is lit, I will be designing the next spaceship, not groping around in the dark looking for some degree I forgot I even had. Ok people, show me what you got done, otherwise move over to YouTube and watch videos?

And grumpy, the horse is dead, really I am not lying, it died years ago, so sorry for your loss.

Gary wrote:

quote:

And grumpy, the horse is dead, really I am not lying, it died years ago, so sorry for your loss.

It may be dead in your part of the world but it will be very much alive in Indiana unil I get so senile I don't remember which came first, the Horse or the Cart.

Gary also wrote;

"I started a post about projects for people to post their work, and you even thought it was a good idea, guess what, one post by me and nothing from you or any other hot shots on this forum."

Does that give you an idea of how many great designs are being produced by the six Fluid Power posters that offer advice on this and other Forums??????????? Even Peter stayed out of that one. Maybe his stuff is too big a secret.

How much of the work you do in the 40 different countries involve Ground Breaking designs that no one else has ever thought of.

How many Trouble Shooting trips do you make to the mundane simple circuits that were designed so poorly that the Heat Exchanger keeps getting fouled by mineral deposits in the water due to the temperature extremes it sees???????????? Or the oil is burned beyond any use as Hydrlauic Fluid???????????

Gary also wrote:

"Time for people to stop talking about what they think they know, and start showing what they have done or could do and really what they know about hydraulics.

Could be it's different in your experience but from many of the post's I see the Fluid Power world has not changed forever, and, there must be a reason for that. My thinking still may be off but I will keep rattling cages until I forget how to, I am proven wrong or something is done to alleviate the problem as I see it.

I have a 375 page book of circuits that explains all the basic circuits and has a section of some unique circuits for saving energy in the back of it. I also have a book I use to teach Basics and one for teaching Trouble Shooting. You would think books like these would be in demand but so far the sales are underwhelming.

When's the last time you heard this statement:

"Put that in your Pipe and Smoke it"?????

Gary, it's fun to banter with you. Keeps the forum lively and may help get readers on board. I doubt either of us will change our minds, could be something about the air we breathe. I've never had the opportunity to get any of that Pacific Ocean breeze so I can't tell what affect it might have on me. This Mid-Western air gets pretty stagnant sometime and could be part of the reason for my "Grumpiness."

Regards:

Buds quote - It may be dead in your part of the world but it will be very much alive in Indiana until I get so senile I don't remember which came first, the Horse or the Cart.

Answer - I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think you have reached that point.

Buds quote - Does that give you an idea of how many great designs are being produced by the six Fluid Power posters that offer advice on this and other Forums??????????? Even Peter stayed out of that one. Maybe his stuff is too big a secret.

Answer – I cannot speak for Peter, but he has posted some projects he has done, and has some on his web site as well.

Buds quote - How much of the work you do in the 40 different countries involve Ground Breaking designs that no one else has ever thought of.

Answer – I have a few, but now I know you have little or no understanding of design or engineering in hydraulics. It is not all about the next great break-through or patent, it is about making something work better. You do not have to re-invent the wheel to make it perform better. Sure I have done some things no one has ever done before, but that was not the intent of the re-design or new design, it was simply looking at something and finding a better way to make it work, whether that was efficiency, performance, energy savings or whatever. I have gone back to some of my designs and find they too can be improved after taking a second look at them, or learning something new I did not know before. Ground breaking, patent chasing people do little to improve what they already have and sit around writing books about what the world would be if only they could invent something.


Buds quote - How many Trouble Shooting trips do you make to the mundane simple circuits that were designed so poorly that the Heat Exchanger keeps getting fouled by mineral deposits in the water due to the temperature extremes it sees???????????? Or the oil is burned beyond any use as Hydraulic Fluid???????????

Answer – I have seen my share of these as well, mostly in the industrial states back east. We sit on the Pacific Rim and competition is brutal from overseas companies, either you compete or you wind up like Indiana and other industrial states with closed down factories or outdated equipment which cannot compete in the world market. When I hear statements like, “this is the way we have been doing things for 50 plus years, why change”, or “why does my hydraulic oil look like black crude oil pumped from the ground”, I see a dying or dead company soon to shut their doors. No consultant is going to change that, change has to come from within the company, not from the outside. It has nothing to do with simple or mundane circuits, it’s all about attitude and wanting to compete in the world market, not about asking for protection of an outdated industrial plant that has not had a new idea about anything for 50-years.

If Boeing Aircraft gave up every time Airbus in Europe came out with a new plane, they would have been gone long ago, but they just step it up to the next level and compete. That’s why they are number one; they want to be the best.

Buds quote - Could be it's different in your experience but from many of the post's I see the Fluid Power world has not changed forever, and, there must be a reason for that. My thinking still may be off but I will keep rattling cages until I forget how to, I am proven wrong or something is done to alleviate the problem as I see it.

Answer – The posts on this forum is 0.00001% of the real world, and doesn’t mean squat.

Buds quote - I have a 375 page book of circuits that explains all the basic circuits and has a section of some unique circuits for saving energy in the back of it. I also have a book I use to teach Basics and one for teaching Trouble Shooting. You would think books like these would be in demand but so far the sales are underwhelming.
When's the last time you heard this statement:
"Put that in your Pipe and Smoke it"?????

Answer – Ah book writers? I once meet Jack Johnson; he was called out as a hydraulic expert to a particle board plant to troubleshoot a problem. After four hours he stated he had never seen anything this big, had no idea how it worked and left. There are book writers and people that fix things, and the book writers are always telling the people who fix things how to do it, go figure?


Buds quote - Gary, it's fun to banter with you. Keeps the forum lively and may help get readers on board. I doubt either of us will change our minds, could be something about the air we breathe. I've never had the opportunity to get any of that Pacific Ocean breeze so I can't tell what affect it might have on me. This Mid-Western air gets pretty stagnant sometime and could be part of the reason for my "Grumpiness."

Answer – Your welcome to come visit but you cannot stay, we have enough eastern tree huggers out here now, do not want anymore. The air we breathe is full of competition from overseas that wants our money, our jobs and manufacturing base, and our attitude is we don’t give anything away; you have to take it from us first. There is an old saying we have out west, “you don’t sit in a fox hole reading a letter from home, when bullets are bouncing off your helmet”. Come visit, Peter and I will walk you through the real world and you can go back home and write about it.

PS – Remember VISIT ONLY, as much I like you, I do not want you living across the street from me, period. Take care old man and live long and keep writing those books, somebody will buy them sooner or later, they have some good information in them.

Gary wrote;

quote:

keep writing those books, somebody will buy them sooner or later, they have some good information in them.

Thanks for the Kudos.

Wow, another usenet thread.

Sorry about that C1ay.

If you have been around long you know Gary and I get carried away often.

About time for something useful, What do you have to offer?????