An open post to the forum –

This is rather long, but worth the reading in my opinion. Even the great GLK has problems with applications and I would like to share a $150,000.00 problem on a 20 million dollar project with the forum.

Partial excerpt from letter sent by me to one of my electronic programming vendors:

“I have been called stupid, (a management technique used in-house by “blank” to get someone’s attention), and asked why I cannot understand simple things, along with being called mean spirited. I fully expect that my response to “blank’s” latest report will cause me to fall within one or more of these categories.

Please allow me to provide a very brief history of my qualifications regarding hydraulics and motion control. A total of 45 years of experience in the application of hydraulic circuits in all types of applications. With over (12) years of experience in designing applications in electro-hydraulics, (or the study of controlling hydraulics with motion controllers). I do fully understand force control, position control and velocity control, and when to use them and when not to use these controls in regarding control of a hydraulic system. The “beast” as it is sometimes referred to jokingly, is nothing more than a hydraulic system made up of a giant spring (hydraulics) with a mass connected to the end of this spring. You can pull on the beast, or push the beast; the beast has a frequency at which it will become unstable. Push or pull too hard, or push or pull too fast and the beast will react in an unstable way. When the beast reacts badly it will force a feedback into the motion controller that will make both not play well with each other as to control?

The application of electro-hydraulic motion control is really pretty easy to do, the biggest obstacle is finding a company or programming person that will study and understand the behavior of the “beast”. Nine out of ten electronic programmers do not understand hydraulics, refuse to learn or understand hydraulics or refuse to consider advice from someone that does know hydraulics during the application of electro-hydraulic systems, and many applications fail because of this industry wide arrogance with electronic programmers.

Now that I have insulted just about every electronic programmer, which should help get me into the right category of derogatory remarks listed above that have been direct towards me. I now know the answer to a nagging question I have always had as to why after sending reams of paperwork detailing this operation there was never any feedback, questions or response or discussions regarding the programming of the “blank” from “blank”. All my input has been dismissed or ignored and the programming has been set forth by “blank” in the wrong direction as it pertains to control of this application.”

End of excerpt from letter sent.

Now, Peter Nachtwey is one of the rare electronic motion control programmers that have hydraulic knowledge far and above most on this forum or any other electronic programmers. A few facts regarding Peter Nachtwey.

Arrogant, yes.
Frustrating, yes.
Knowledgeable, yes.
Provides complicated, accurate and detailed, answers, yes.

All of these traits are what you would expect and want when seeking the best and most knowledgeable person in application work.

Now, let us turn around and see what Peter has to work with in motion control applications regarding hydraulic people.

Nine out of ten do not have application experience in motion control. Most do not understand the terms, formulas as they are used in motion control. Most hydraulic people do not have the math skills required in motion control applications. Most hydraulic people are limited only by what they have read in some book and manufactures data sheet, and almost always is misunderstood and or make incorrect assumptions as to what they are reading. I can understand Peter’s frustration with hydraulic people in general.

It is a huge loss to this forum with Peter Nachtwey withdrawing his input and knowledge to this forum. The current condition of having self professed clowns, elderly people out dated and with limited knowledge and self professed readable experts providing input to this forum will only serve to delay by many years anyone on this forum to obtain or achieve a level that would allow them to apply electro-hydraulic applications. In the meantime electro-hydraulic (motion control) applications are becoming much more common and in demand.

There you go again mr. So called expert... I always like to clown over you and Peter, you 2 are really arrogant and rude as well as boastful.

Arrogance+rude= stupidity

you are just lucky to be in the position to know more, but do you think some people here can't do what you can if given the opportunity? I can bet that if these young people who have the desire to do hydraulics or motion control can become like any other expert, if given a chance and opportunity.

If you have 45 years of experience(continous), some people might be able to do what you can do in a lesser amount of time... I bet...
So what if me or some other people just read books?! I do this because I have no opportunity or chance to do so... Besides the hydraulic books that we read has what it takes to undertand almost anything about fluid power. And it can be understand just fine, but not spoon feed...
I won't care about your spring mass system, I just enjoy being able to give some common sense... And when thre is a chance to need those higher/complex applications, then I will make sure to learn it much easier and faster ...

You know what GLK?! You are much more arrogant than Peter! At least Peter contributes(even if he deletes) and interest more viewers... Interest me more... Peter can bring out some "least" out of me... honestly... He makes me read more .

Thank you Maglub, Active Hydraulic Clown, you have allowed me to make a final and last comment.

Based on your reply, we the defense has made our case and rests your honnor.

Great post Gary, even if it was lengthy. I'm pleased you finally agree there is a need for Trained Fluid Power persons.

Been saiyng that for years with little success. Maybe another persons input will get something positive going.

I especially liked this part:

"Nine out of ten do not have application experience in motion control. Most do not understand the terms, formulas as they are used in motion control. Most hydraulic people do not have the math skills required in motion control applications. Most hydraulic people are limited only by what they have read in some book and manufactures data sheet, and almost always is misunderstood and or make incorrect assumptions as to what they are reading."

However I believe you are low balling your figures, I think 1t is more like 999 out of 1,000.

Oops, I promised not to bring up the subject for the need to have TRAINED/DEDICATE Fluid Power persons did'nt I!!!!!

SORRYYYYYYYY:

quote:

Originally posted by maglub:
There you go again mr. So called expert... I always like to clown over you and Peter, you 2 are really arrogant and rude as well as boastful.

I don't need to boast and anyone that knows more than you is arrogant and any knowledge you don't understand is non-sense.

quote:

you are just lucky to be in the position to know more,

Yes, I am in a position to know more. I/we see many application each year yet we don't need to be tied down to any one since we are not the system integrators. We are just the tech support or advisers.

I have paid a price for that knowledge.

quote:

but do you think some people here can't do what you can if given the opportunity?

No one 'gave' me the opportunity. In some cases I paid for the opportunity. In other cases I had to wait for the opportunity to come around and recognize it. The school of hard knocks is always open.

quote:

I can bet that if these young people who have the desire to do hydraulics or motion control can become like any other expert, if given a chance and opportunity.

The opportunity exist now.

quote:

I won't care about your spring mass system,

"Living is easy with eyes closed...."

quote:

I just enjoy being able to give some common sense...

Ignoring reality is not a sign of common sense.

quote:

And when thre is a chance to need those higher/complex applications, then I will make sure to learn it much easier and faster ...

Yes, and I will learn quantum physics and string theory tomorrow... fat chance.

quote:

You know what GLK?! You are much more arrogant than Peter! At least Peter contributes(even if he deletes) and interest more viewers... Interest me more... Peter can bring out some "least" out of me... honestly... He makes me read more .

Neither one of us owe you answers. Do you realize that I could have helped on your helicopter problem. We have been involved with helicopter blade testing before. I can think of two applications at least. You pissed me off so I didn't say anything.

Bud, you are whining yet again and you still don't get it. Forget about your TRAINED/DEDICATED fluid power person. You had the right idea with your MechaFluidTronics person. If you read GLK's post carefully is complaining that the control guy doesn't understand or care to know what GLK is saying. I know these problem exist in the opposite direction too. The control, fluid power and mechanical people must all communicate AND be able to understand what the other people are saying or the project will fail. This means that the person with the 'right stuff' will be trained in three areas AT LEAST.

We get involved with hundreds of system each year. We see hydraulic people design systems that aren't controllable. Control people that are so ignorant of hydraulics that they don't know the system they are trying to control is uncontrollable. We see mechanical people that must sell their designs by the pound not realizing that is takes power to accelerate and decelerate their machines quickly.

Bud, get your head out of the sand. Look at Mech Builder's post. There is so much math and physics that must be done BEFORE the hydraulics requirement are known. Get over it. Fluid power is just another way of transferring energy from one point to another. First one must know the power requirements before starting on the hydraulic design.

quote:

Originally posted by GLK:
Now, Peter Nachtwey is one of the rare electronic motion control programmers that have hydraulic knowledge far and above most on this forum or any other electronic programmers. A few facts regarding Peter Nachtwey.

Arrogant, yes.
Frustrating, yes.
Knowledgeable, yes.
Provides complicated, accurate and detailed, answers, yes.

I have been saying "One of the FEW but RARE is actually a much closer to home statement when it comes to the number of persons that have more than a rudimentary knowledge of all things Fluid Power, not just Motion Control.

I like your post Gary, bet that turns you on!!!!

Peter
I did not say nor think that anyone who knows more than I(esp in hydraulics) are arrogant. I made such comment against you and GLK because it is very obvious... boasting is fine as long as you have what it takes to... but not to the extent of treating people as having no knowledge. The two of you always think about your superiority from others, what does it mean? You ask Bud T to resign?! What else have you done to Bud T?! When I was new in this forum, Bud T warned me about this kind of heated arguments, but just downplayed it and just make some little contribution(if I can).

Most if not all of us pay a price of what we become... I paid so much price on concentrating to hydraulics(I have only few women , I relinguish my little electrical knowledge, I did not enrich myself[asking much payment on my hydraulic jobs], etc)... I just wanted to learn then... and thats the price.

Hydraulic motion controls are everywhere... even a simple bang-bang circuit is considered motion controlling. If you need much precision, the question is are you willing to pay the price? Is the cost of designing a prop/servo on log splitters justifiable? Do you think those who designed mobile equipment having reducing valves as pilot, are not qualified as motion control designers? Lots of them are qualified...

Yes, college of hardknocks is open... and it helps a lot of people to learn more because it is the cheaper and easy way(learning components is like learning motion controls). Some people are just not lucky to have sufficient references on higher application... I have enough(even if not sufficient) because I "paid the price"... During my early years in hydraulics, I always wanted to find more references, and was lucky to have a complete set of Rexroth books. No one taught me about hydraulics... I learned it myself and together with college of hardknocks, the more I understand and became confident to do it... and if there is a chance to improve, I will grab it... especially if the need arises.

I never ignore reality, and the reality in hydraulics start when you know the "basic", then progress towards the higher level and not the other way around.

I have no problem with that helicopter component, I brought it out to demonstrate a very bad component design of some "so called engineers". I know what is the problem(even if I dont do that job) and troubleshooting is like motion controlling.

Peter, most of the existing hydraulic machineries in this world needs more college of hardknocks people. There are more existing than newly designed machineries. And if customers can reduce the cost of maintenance WRT production as compared to upgrading and incurr more power losses, do you think they will choose the higher tech designs? If they have money, YES!

Yes, more "controls people" dont have enough hydraulics knowledge... they are lazy or dont like to do dirty jobs. Learning hydraulics means dirtying yourself(like a mechanic), otherwise you can just talk shit. What is the use of talking about servo and prop if you havent done some college of hardknocks? How could you troubleshoot some servo/prop problems if you dont understand how it works? You just cheat on the controllers? A lot of controls people do this kind of trick... because they dont know how hydraulic components work...

It is amazing to see the reply’s to my post, only Grandpa Clown and his Son the Mango Clown respond and miss the mark by a mile.

The post was to simply show that communications is a two way street when it comes to electro-hydraulic applications. The second intent was to show Peter does have some very good worth as to input on the forum.

However, nether Peter or I suffer fools very well and become frustrated with posts like Grandpa Clown and his son Mango Clown.

Grandpa Clown cuts and paste words out of context to suit his point of view, and Mango Clown just does not make any sense at all, no matter what he posts.

I tried very hard to make two simple points, keep it civil and contribute something that may have benefit someone reading the post. Look what came back, the Clowns and a lot of gibberish, nothing that adds to the post in any way for further learning.

Just personal attacks from the Clowns, and you wonder why I do not post more and contribute to this forum?

All the people signed up on this forum should move to Face Book or YouTube to keep themselves entertained and this forum removed from the Internet to make room for something of value.

Two other points, Hydraulics & Pneumatics has pretty much lost all creditability with advertisements disguised as articles, not even worth reading.

Second allowing and promoting E-Books that are nothing more than cut and paste from original writings, why not just buy the originals and get the correct information?

It is no surprise that this forum draws fluid power sales people that call sales of a part hydraulic design, and a mechanic that removes and replaces a hydraulic part and calls it hydraulic design, an old man long since passed on and nobody wants to tell him he is dead, and a mango hydraulic tree shaker that is just plain scary being on the planet let alone on some customers job site.

Hydraulics & Pneumatics Forum is actually YOUTUBE without the pictures, what a cruel joke.

Oh, but with your attitude GLK, when you go to a job site and act like a he-who, you think you will earn respect?!

No matter how expert you are, but if you act like somebody, you will be nothing...

I am sure, this forum is probably better than others(hydraulics)... with entertainment...

I guess GLK just want to distract this forum so that others wont learn enough to maintain his company's competitiveness

This message has been edited. Last edited by: maglub,

Several decades ago when I enrolled for my second semester at a university I signed up for freshman physics. The course was required and I paid good money for it, money I worked hard to earn over the summer and working nights during the school year because no one else was going to pay for it. There was a "know-it-all" junior who sat on the front row. He questioned everything the professor, Dr. M, said and contradicted him constantly. Dr. M. indulged him and wasted lecture time entertaining his clown-manship. Two weeks in I could see that this clown was going to interfere with my education, not only did I not want to waste my money, I didn't want to waste my time either. I dropped the class and enrolled in another section at a different time under a different professor. This change cascaded into a major re-arrangement of my schedule. It was a major hassle. But it got me out of a class that was rendered completely hopeless by one clown. As soon as I got into the new class it was immediately apparent how much the clown had retarded the progress of the one class in just two weeks, and how much Dr. M had allowed that to happen.

This is forum Alaric, and there are plenty of threads to to go to... If you think Peter's or GLK alone will please you why not go to their own forum?! I am sure you will get much from them, but then why you keep on coming back to this forum?

Are you hurt by the clowns here or you learn more? Does word hurt you?! What will you lose? Peter has his forum too...

You like to contribute? Do it!!! If you dont like to contribute, then its up to you...

quote:

You like to contribute? Do it!!!

OK ...I will!

Sadly Peter baiting seems to be a pastime for some.

I for one will certainly miss the education of his posts.


Regards Woody

I see that the point was completely missed. That was however not unexpected. Any institution, no matter what its nature, that drives out expertise, or allows expertise to be driven out, is in deep trouble.

Yes, I have other places to post and contribute - places where professional courtesy exists and where it is valued - which is why I rarely come here. I drop in from time to time to see if things have improved. So far I have been disappointed.

I will miss Peter's post too , and if hydraulic people like to learn more on prop and servo systems, they can buy books. Rexroth volume 2 has a lot of this topics(quite hard to understand though), almost everything but with derived formula(calculus was used), etc, etc... or maybe the so called JJ's book. Rexroth has another volume that deals with designing hydraulic system... I am not sure if Vickers or Parker have...

I am sure Peter will come back , never mind GLK, he just talk...

woodygb;
Here is a link to Peter's Forum;
http://forum.deltamotion.com/i...3c5f43004e43ef5fefb2

He has a lot of his training material as part of it. You won't have to miss any of his input plus others post' as well.

Anybody can read the post' but you have to be approved to write or answer one.