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Need to build a PTO drive powered by a hyraulic pump
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Bernoulli
posted
I have a brand new chipper that requires a at least a 25 hp tractor with a 540hp PTO. I would like to see what it would take to build a 540/1000 rpm PTO driven via a hydraulic pump. Can anyone Point me to some good sources of information. I am a novice and I know hydraulics and fluid dynamics are a specialized field so I am really looking for more of a kit or a proven solution to copy. This is not for a business, I have limited funds but do like to tinker. This would make for a fun project if I could get it to work.

similar to this:
http://www.budgetforklift.com/pto-adapter.html?gclid=CM...avpZACFUWoGgod3lMd7A

Thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Richard,
 
Posts: 5 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pascal
Picture of Nahum Goldenberg
posted Hide Post
Hi Richard,
If I understood you well , you are looking
for a PTO Pump Drive.
Have a look at the attached picture and
visit www.hydr-app.com

 
Posts: 277 | Registered: 02 April 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Reynolds
Picture of Duane P
posted Hide Post
Hi Richard,
I am also a novice hydraulic hobbyist who frequents this web site. You'll sometimes find the Pros on this site are reluctant to give answers to general questions, especially if there are safety concerns. That said, I have gained alot of useful knowledge here by first giving as much specification as I can gather about the hardware I have, or would like to use, and then by asking specific questions, such as how big of a pump or motor is required, or can someone give an example of a circuit diagram etc.. They are good folks, just concerned for our health. I use mostly http://www.surpluscenter.com, or Northern hydraulics, for my component purchases.
As I understand it, you want to power a 25HP chipper shredder, which was originally intended for 3-point tractor mounting, but you want to use a seperate hydraulic power supply (pump unit) which would, in-turn, power a hydraulic motor to turn the chipper shredder at 540-1000 RPM. Things to consider might be:
1)Since the original tractor mounting provided stability/ portability. Will another machine, such as a fork lift or skid-steer, be used to provide stability, and portability?
2)Does the hydraulic power supply you intend to use already exist, or will that be part of the build? It will need to have somewhat more power than 25 HP (perhaps +30 HP) to fully power the shredder.
3)Is the chipper shredder rated to turn 540 max, making 1000 RPM a dangerous proposition?
4)Have you collected any hardware yet that might indicate some starting parameters such as maximum pressure or volume you would prefer to use?
5)Have you fully considered mechanical alternatives which are generally much less expensive, and far more efficient that hydraulics?

I once built a hydraulic mower deck and subsequently was so disapointed with its performance due to inefficiencies of the hydraulics that I converted it to (gear-box) drive, and gained about 25% more torque in the lower ranges (using the same tractor).
But I know its also fun to pursue hydraulics just for the sport, so my advice is to read as much as you can from this website, as well as other sources. Learn and try-out the basic formulas pertaining to pressure, volume (displacement) and the related power and torque formulas available via a quick google search.
 
Posts: 70 | Location: Seattle | Registered: 26 October 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bourdon
Picture of Bud T
posted Hide Post
Well put Duane. Maybe the Title to this section needs to be changed to Check (Critique (Get Advice On) Your System Design / Trouble Shooting.
People mean well but some are real Lawsuit Happy also and I for one don't need the frustration.


Bud Trinkel
FP Consultant Retired
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson"
 
Posts: 1761 | Location: Newburgh, Indiana | Registered: 07 October 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Duane P:
Hi Richard,
I am also a novice hydraulic hobbyist who frequents this web site. You'll sometimes find the Pros on this site are reluctant to give answers to general questions, especially if there are safety concerns. That said, I have gained alot of useful knowledge here by first giving as much specification as I can gather about the hardware I have, or would like to use, and then by asking specific questions, such as how big of a pump or motor is required, or can someone give an example of a circuit diagram etc.. They are good folks, just concerned for our health. I use mostly http://www.surpluscenter.com, or Northern hydraulics, for my component purchases.
As I understand it, you want to power a 25HP chipper shredder, which was originally intended for 3-point tractor mounting, but you want to use a seperate hydraulic power supply (pump unit) which would, in-turn, power a hydraulic motor to turn the chipper shredder at 540-1000 RPM. Things to consider might be:
1)Since the original tractor mounting provided stability/ portability. Will another machine, such as a fork lift or skid-steer, be used to provide stability, and portability?
2)Does the hydraulic power supply you intend to use already exist, or will that be part of the build? It will need to have somewhat more power than 25 HP (perhaps +30 HP) to fully power the shredder.
3)Is the chipper shredder rated to turn 540 max, making 1000 RPM a dangerous proposition?
4)Have you collected any hardware yet that might indicate some starting parameters such as maximum pressure or volume you would prefer to use?
5)Have you fully considered mechanical alternatives which are generally much less expensive, and far more efficient that hydraulics?

I once built a hydraulic mower deck and subsequently was so disapointed with its performance due to inefficiencies of the hydraulics that I converted it to (gear-box) drive, and gained about 25% more torque in the lower ranges (using the same tractor).
But I know its also fun to pursue hydraulics just for the sport, so my advice is to read as much as you can from this website, as well as other sources. Learn and try-out the basic formulas pertaining to pressure, volume (displacement) and the related power and torque formulas available via a quick google search.


Thanks you are right on target. I didn't supply that info because I have several options for the main drive power. And all of you comments are things I need to think about and decide on. My post was really to see if there are existing examples of what I need and to either copy or model after or learn from past experiences. I have an old Toyota FJ40 and am buying a small backhoe loader which does not have aux hydraulics. But it is only 20hp and and I figured w/respect o efficiently would need a 25hp to drive the hydraulics. I was also considering changing the engine to a 30hp diesel. I was also thinking of adding aux to the loader. I was also wondering if using an electric motor is possible.

I have been wanting to experiment with hydraulics for a while now, so making some mistakes is expected.
Thanks again for your insight and info.

Rich
 
Posts: 5 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nahum Goldenberg:
Hi Richard,
If I understood you well , you are looking
for a PTO Pump Drive.
Have a look at the attached picture and
visit www.hydr-app.com


Thanks that is definitely one of the motors I would need.
 
Posts: 5 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bud T:
Well put Duane. Maybe the Title to this section needs to be changed to Check (Critique (Get Advice On) Your System Design / Trouble Shooting.
People mean well but some are real Lawsuit Happy also and I for one don't need the frustration.


The forum is named "Design". And the sub topic sugest that this forum is for design suceess stories as well. If you don't like to share "design" info then just don't. That is up to you. There is no need to take it personal. I am just a doing this as a project for myself. I am not trying to make money off of you or steal ideas. Lawsuits can be avoided with disclaimers. After all this being said, I was just asking for a source for an existing design to either copy, model or learn from.

Have a great day
Rich

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Richard,
 
Posts: 5 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bourdon
Picture of Bud T
posted Hide Post
Richard;

Sorry to come across as someone who does not want to share what I know about Fluid Power. Take a look at the Ebooks on the home page of this forum, (Back to HydraulicsPneumatics.com) below.

They are books I use to teach Fluid Power Basics and an advanced class for how circuits operate. Unfortunately there are no Power Takeoff circuits there though I do go into Hydro-Static Drives which would be one way to power your chipper and have infinitely variable speed plus Bi-Diectional rotation.

The problem with what you are looking to do, in my opinion, is the cost you will incur with a Hydro-Static drive, especially, for the HP you are requesting. Other methods could be used but energy waste could be high and oil heating could be a real problem to name a coup;e of problems.

BTW, the books are being presented a chapter every two weeks or thereabout so it will be awhile before they are fully on the web site.


Bud Trinkel
FP Consultant Retired
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world. "Thomas Jefferson"
 
Posts: 1761 | Location: Newburgh, Indiana | Registered: 07 October 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Reynolds
Picture of Duane P
posted Hide Post
Richard,
There is probably a complete hardware kit out there for adapting a 3-point chipper shredder to hydraulic drive, but I didn't see any during my cursory search. I am quite sure you could collect the components through surplus sources for less money than a kit. To get an idea of what might be needed I used on-line hydraulic calculators: http://www.permco.com/hydraulic_calculator or http://www.baumhydraulics.com to determine the following information:
25 hp = 30 gpm X 2200 psi @ 65% motor efficiency, and 25 hp = 375 ft/lbs X 540 rpm @ 65% motor efficiency. So any hydraulic power supply that can provide 30 gpm X 2200 psi will probably work, and any hydraulic motor rated for 2200 psi that will produce 375 ft/lbs of torque at 540 rpm (in the proper direction of rotation) will likely work. Shaft adapters for to give the motor 6-tooth (tractor) splines are available at http://www.hubcityinc.com/pdf5/q.pdf

Now for my disclaimer: The information I have provided is for reference only and is not intended to provide any functional design criteria. Information provider (me) is in no way liable for its accuracy, safety, or methods of intended use.
 
Posts: 70 | Location: Seattle | Registered: 26 October 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Duane P:
Richard,
There is probably a complete hardware kit out there for adapting a 3-point chipper shredder to hydraulic drive, but I didn't see any during my cursory search. I am quite sure you could collect the components through surplus sources for less money than a kit. To get an idea of what might be needed I used on-line hydraulic calculators: http://www.permco.com/hydraulic_calculator or http://www.baumhydraulics.com to determine the following information:
25 hp = 30 gpm X 2200 psi @ 65% motor efficiency, and 25 hp = 375 ft/lbs X 540 rpm @ 65% motor efficiency. So any hydraulic power supply that can provide 30 gpm X 2200 psi will probably work, and any hydraulic motor rated for 2200 psi that will produce 375 ft/lbs of torque at 540 rpm (in the proper direction of rotation) will likely work. Shaft adapters for to give the motor 6-tooth (tractor) splines are available at http://www.hubcityinc.com/pdf5/q.pdf

Now for my disclaimer: The information I have provided is for reference only and is not intended to provide any functional design criteria. Information provider (me) is in no way liable for its accuracy, safety, or methods of intended use.


Very useful Thanks
 
Posts: 5 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 12 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
My Deere 210c industrial tractor is factory equipped with a hydraulic drive pto. These tractors have no provision for a geardrive pto. It looks like the ones that surplus center sells. Works OK for my manure spreader but stalls with 7' snowblower. Does anyone know how to tell what torque it might have?
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pascal
Picture of Nahum Goldenberg
posted Hide Post
In order to be able to analyse I need to know:
1) Maximum flow and pressure of your JD 210C.
2) Torque,Speed & Power at(least two parameters)
...of your Snowblower.
 
Posts: 277 | Registered: 02 April 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
Tractor hydraulics is 17.2 GPM @ 2000PSI 55 SAE HP engine, Snowblower requires 40hp
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Pascal
Picture of Nahum Goldenberg
posted Hide Post
At maximum flow of 17,2 GPM and 2000 PSI , the
Hydraulic Power at 90% efficiency is 18,2 HP.
If your Snowblower needs 40 HP , no doubt that
system stalls. It seems that the 55 HP related
to JD engine power.You quoted that No PTO drive
so the only chance to drive your Snowblower is
to add(if technically possible) a pump on front
of the JD engine that will suplly the required
flow and pressure. To size correctly the pump
it is needed to get the data of your Snowblower
Hydraulic Motor(Type , displacement and speed)
all based on the 40 HP required.
 
Posts: 277 | Registered: 02 April 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bernoulli
posted Hide Post
Thanks Nahum;
Since my pump does drive off the front of the engine, I suppose in order to use the snowblower I shall have to find another tractor.
Regards
Robert
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: 02 February 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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