I cant upload my scanned circuit, too big...(700).

i tried saving on wordpad, im bobo with settings. how about if i send it thru e-mail? will it go thru?!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Nachtwey:
I posted a link to AKKAMAAN's circuit on www.plcs.net because I was asking about relay logic editors as opposed to a PLC ladder editor. They are two different things.

I read your posting and the replies on plcs.net.
They all had some great points. Thanks for doing that! :-)
Of course I did do this to proof it was possible to do auto cycle with realys only.
And I did not put any extar into "safety", because I do not know what is OSHA-required on a press..... Two hand operation make a lot of sense, but will also "kill" the need of autocycle.....I would put the E-stop button on the main power supply line......I will let Jeff K take over the safety issues on this thread......

Anyway...I know this is NOT hydraulics, but IMO, there is NO hydraulics without the electrics, so I will keep bothering you guys with some more...

I also looked at some of the available software's for this type of design, and the on with limited symbols, PC/chematic Automation, was a little "thin", but I will look deeper into it, to figure more out.....
I will keep checking the rest of the hints out aswell....
Btw that Automation Studio was the real deal....wow...I gotta request a non- commercial quote on that program....

quote:

One person didn't like AKKAMAAN's placement citing the same thing Maglub did about the inputs on the left and the ouputs on the right. However, this was written on a piece of paper so it is hard to edit and move parts around.

Inputs on the left and outputs on the right, has been standard on this drawings as long as I have been around this(mid 70's), at least on ALL logging equipment from northern Europe, Swe/Fin, and they represent almost 100% of the advanced technology logging equipment, so I have that in my "veins"....:-)
I don't understand what the big deal about that is??.....Is there a different lay-out standard working with PLC software???
maybe someone can explain please....

Would be interesting to have a PRO designer to move the components around so the design meet proper std. Of course with motivation.

As I said earlier, I do not know all terms in English, and wonder about following....

1. Is "ladder logic" a term used with PLC programming? My way to draw this is a like ladder too!! One long bar on each side , and steps between.....

2. "latching relay"?? Is that a relay that steps between two or more positions (output's) mechnically?

3. Is this the circuit "holding relay"?? It is very common (necessary) in auto cycle relay circuits...if you want to start an auto cycle with an "impuls"....and give it "auto stop".....


4. Most simple mobile electric applications, like lights, horn, wipers etc, run negative thru the frame or chassi, aka ground, but I think there is a distinction between ground and chassi when it comes to the high voltage power, hwere we have Phase and zero(0), and ground is a safety "bypass", going in to the ground, dirt, soil or whatever....
Is it custom to always name negative or minus as "ground", or does the term "ground" mean that it is not wired, and goes thru "chassi"???? In my drawing it didnt say anything about wired negative or not, but I would always wire instead of using "ground"...
BTW, Woodygb can name a few British car makes that used to have "positive ground"......what a mess...especially when an "amatuer" try to use a jump wire (only one) between a pos ground and a neg ground car....poofff....

I belive that most / all early cars were positive earth....then a convention of negative earth was adopted.
Some manufactures ( Brits ) just ignored the new convention for a bit longer than others.

Regards Woody

Edit:- I couldn't resist this quote from the web...

quote:

But after the mid-sixties the Brits went negative earth so poor Yanks wouldn't get so confused...........

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Woodygb,

quote:

Is there a different lay-out standard working with PLC software???

Inputs always on the left, outputs always on the right, I might be wrong, but all programming software that I have used prevents you from using input devices right of outputs.

quote:

Is "ladder logic" a term used with PLC programming?

Ladder logic or RLL relay ladder logic, or 984 Ladder Logic ....

quote:

"latching relay"?? Is that a relay that steps between two or more positions (output's) mechnically?

A true latching relay works just like a standard relay, except there is a mechanical latch that holds the state of the relay, until a seperate signal is applied to the release coil in the relay. It will maintain it's latched state regardless of power being present. True latching relays are pretty rare.
A holding relay is exactly as you have drawn in it in your diagram. where an NO output feeds the coil to keep it maintained. It will reset on loss of power.

quote:

Is this the circuit "holding relay"??

Yes.

quote:

I think there is a distinction between ground and chassi when it comes to the high voltage power

Yes, earth ground is a seperate entity, often chasis ground is earth grounded.
There's lots of range rover in this part of the world that have their original positive ground.

quote:

In my drawing it didnt say anything about wired negative or not, but I would always wire instead of using "ground"..

The battery, or polarity or EMF supply symbol at the top of your diagram refereced polarity to one side or the other, but it would be fair I think to also call it a positve ground if you wanted to, it's all releative. You could have a voltage divider with the center tap being 0 refference volts, and call that ground, or have -12 volts and call that ground, or have + 12 volts and call that ground. You could have a common ground for two or more seperate supplies as well.

my circuit is in adobe reader, what shall i do to make an attachment? do i need to re scan it? i really dont know...

quote:

Originally posted by maglub:
my circuit is in adobe reader, what shall i do to make an attachment? do i need to re scan it? i really dont know...

If you have it i the Adobe Reader, you can just save the pdf-file and attach it to your post!

It's too big akka and I only have two choice to save it. I will just ask a friend to scan and make a PDF for me and send it to my email. I am not sure if when I use my camera the size will become small.

The difference between the electrical ckt to plc ladder is the inputs(switches) symbols in electrical is simplified into two symbols in a plc ladder(open/close or called on/off). You can notice that a very complicated electrical circuit is made simple using a plc ladder. Actually you can easily make a program of plc without using a ladder. This can be done by just loading all the switches/inputs from the left to right until you reach the relay. An address is assigned to each input and outputs and must be in order. Example if you have 4 inputs and one output in one line on a circuit/ladder, the address for input is like 0001, 0002, 0003, 0004(omron) and 1000 for the output. An output "holding contact" is adressed as output number(1000).

In a circuit with one push button start, stop, two limit switch(NC), an output and an output holding contact(parralel to start, NO) in one line(one complete circuit) can be programmed:

0 Ld 0001
1 or 1000
2 and 0002
3 and not 0003
4 and not 0004
5 out 1000
end

When the program is run, and you press the start button, the output relay(internal in plc) will be energized even if the start push button is released. The plc internal relay is kept energized until you press the stop button.

For a basic plc, you just need to know the logic gates like and, or, and not, or not etc. Inputs and outputs are loaded.

The actual wiring to the plc(I am not sure If I can still do it) is funny

hope to post the circuit soon....

Cylinder Control and Positioning done the Delta way. Here is a short video.
http://www.deltamotion.com/pet.../PositionControl.mp4
I didn't have any digital I/O so I didn't do anything with inputs.

The program is fairly straight forward. You draw out a flow chart and convert it to a program. Every program consists of one more more steps and each step is basically doing something and waiting for it to complete before going to the next step. This is a lot different from relay logic.

I was controlling the system remotely over ethernet so I didn't need to compete with the sound of the HPU. We can program, diagnose and control systems over the internet too. There is just a little more lag between the commands. It takes a little time to understand the graphs. I can also plot the pressures and net force if I want but I didn't because it may confuse the issue. I have pressure sensors mounted on the P,T,A and B ports.

I just made the video. I am playing with the toys I have. I haven't figured out how to edit the videos yet. I do these in one take.

Woody, I sent it to your hotmail, please try posting it if you can, then I will just post the possible program...thanks.

quote:

Cylinder Control and Positioning done the Delta way

Just watched it. That is some cool stuff!
Have you got any footage of the indoor water slide project that was in H&P a couple months back? Overcoming the 50' hose lengths. Maybe in a new thread?

that mp4-movie wont open in my laptop....what software do you use??

You need he right codec, then it should play in Windows Media Player. I installed Klite Mega
http://www.codecguide.com/download_mega.htm

quote:

Originally posted by AKKAMAAN:
that mp4-movie wont open in my laptop....what software do you use??

You must upgrade the Windows Media Player. The old versions only seem to support AVI and WMV. I have a Mac which has Quick Time but if you want a more neutral player then the open source and free VLC is highly recommended. I have VLC on every Windows based PC because Windows Media Player is so lame. Windows Media Player will not play to two screens at the same time.

Doug, I will start a new thread on the water slide and how the 50ft of hose problem was partially overcome

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Nachtwey:

quote:

Originally posted by AKKAMAAN:
that mp4-movie wont open in my laptop....what software do you use??

You must upgrade the Windows Media Player. The old versions only seem to support AVI and WMV. I have a Mac which has Quick Time but if you want a more neutral player then the open source and free VLC is highly recommended. I have VLC on every Windows based PC because Windows Media Player is so lame. Windows Media Player will not play to two screens at the same time.

Doug, I will start a new thread on the water slide and how the 50ft of hose problem was partially overcome

Got it! Thanks Peter!

VLC is gr8!!

Watching your lab video now!!! Cool stuff...WOW....

Thanks for the show!!

I'm posting these files on behalf of Maglub.